Identity and blockchain at Think 2019

Identity and blockchain at Think 2019



thanks everyone for coming if you're here to hear about identity and blockchain or in the right space if you're not you got a comfy chair so take a nap so I'm really excited so my name is a Adam Gunther on the director for trusted identity blockchain and we have just a great panel here of experts who have been working not just on blockchain and identity for years but in the identity space for a long time and I think you'll hear a lot of very interesting things today how many people know about blockchain and identity familiarity so those good some hands some not don't worry about it we're gonna start off a little bit slow and just do some basic education about what blockchain and identity is all about and then we'll get into some deep questions as well and we will open it up to the audience we do not have a microphone to go around so just raise your hand shout your question and we'll repeat it back so let's go down with the panelists introduce themselves quickly good afternoon my name is Dan Joseph iam from IBM I'm the CTO of trust identity with blockchain and I work with Adam and many of our customers here on the panel as well as Drummond Johnny it's worth CEO of Cu ledger and great partners with I've even good to see everyone I'm Jonathan Finkelstein the CEO of credit Li and pleased to be working with with IBM on a range of initiatives and I'm sure will they get a little bit into today and I'm Drummond read at Evernham I'm my title is chief trust officer I'm also one of the trustees of the sovereign foundation where I chair the sovereign governance framework working group and at the w3c I'm the co-author of the DI D decentralized identify our specification all right thanks so Drummond why don't you start us off for the audience and explain what is self sovereign identity and it was for me to do this because it requires just two props and actually a very short explanation so prop number one ladies and gentlemen behold self sovereign identity you carry it in your pocket you probably since you were old enough to buy one of these or put it in your purse its itself sovereign because this piece of leather actually belongs to me and I decide what credentials I accept to put it in of course the issuers of those credentials decide if I'm qualified to get one and then I go and take it wherever I want what I need to prove my identity I take out one of those credentials and I show it to a verifier like the TSA agent that I needed to prove my identity to to get on the plane to come here so self sovereign identity is taking the decentralized identity system we've all evolved and used over our lifetimes the last couple hundred years and put it on this and your story so so so I guess it's just a picture of my driver's license that I then stick in my phone so there was a catch of course why are we here untrusted identity and blockchain right if we're going to take these credentials standardized a format standardized the signatures but actually have a way for an issue of one of these credentials for any verifier in the world let's say take my Washington state driver's license if any verify in the world's gonna be able to verify the signature on that then that public key needs to be someplace that they can access it and they can verify that that really is a public key now the solution for doing that surprise surprise watch me actually just require one new open standard called a decentralized identifier a decentralized identifier is the address of a public key on Joaquin so if that driver's license the digital version of that driver's license contained a D ID then a verifier to who might present a proof of that credential well look at that D ID go look it up on the blockchain get the public key and verify the signature that's how we can take these credentials and put them on digital devices and finally have an interoperable digital credential system for planet Earth okay thanks so Dan can you just help goal of a deeper for the audience and we talk sometimes about a web of trust so can you talk about you know what that is and systems work so the model we're all very used to or may not even think about the plumbing behind when you search with the browsers you actually using certificates digital certificates today but they're the the trust model is a centralized trust model rooted with certificate authorities but what if we wanted to have a you know decentralized model and leverage the the as Adam said the web of trust where the web of trust is really my relationships I have been vetted by my canvas as German pointed out there one relationship but I also have social relationships professional relationships and collectively those relationships together can become the aggregate at the station's about Who I am and so the web of trust becomes more of my reputation with all my relationships but as Drummond pointed out we're changing this model of where the the key attributes about where I Who I am and who I'm rooted in which is the certificate or in this case the public key as Drummond said is is stored on a decentralized public blockchain ledger now this solves a problem that's age-old with PKI in PKI you had a private key and a public key and the problem was how do I exchange and that the people I wanted to share secrets with how they get access to my public key so the ledger provides this the decentralized ledger provides this I can using the did that Drummond mentioned inside you can unique identifiers but associated with that unique identifier is my public key I put that up on a public ledger and anybody I want to share secrets with I just give them my did my unique identifier they go validate that that did is up on the ledger they get my public key and now we can transact cryptographically and secretly so that there's a combination of elements they are both standards-based and a different approach on who where we have roots of trust I want to reinforce one thing about what dance because it's a critical misunderstanding from earlier the ideas of blocking identity none of these credentials that we would share none go on a ledger okay no personal data on the ledger the only thing we're using ledger for is the cryptographic infrastructure the decentralized PKI that's needed to verify these credentials all the exchange of credentials takes place off ledger private peer-to-peer and that's how we get actually much greater privacy than many of the systems we have for identity today so not only we've defined the technology a little bit let's talk about the business context and start to get into some scenarios so John you want to talk about what Cu ledger is and what you're doing and you know from a banking perspective why is this interesting well just out of curiosity how many of you actually have an affiliation with a credit union today just anybody to show your hands thank you for your patronage I would submit you are the smart ones in the crowd our our business challenge is a little unique first of all as a cooperative our members are effectively owners because of that nonprofit cooperative and trying to drive value of services we buy inherently want to create that cooperative community so where some of the technologies look for collaboration that's where we start with so as a member what we were looking to do is a couple of things one we want to create the pride of membership the things that we're talking about and the identity elements that we would actually like to use for a cause of good we think there's an opportunity to actually use that for a better member experience that's one and secondly being able to authenticate and create that community of one so in the United States there's something we call chairs branches and the premises I can go to one credit union and actually go to another credit union another state and actually facilitate transactions as if I were a member of the same the technology of the point-to-point network affords that in terms of connectivity that blends them the problem of authentication and making sure you can know of it that's actually the person whom you actually want it to be so for us it was not finding technology to go search for a problem our business model of collaboration necessitated that as a need and thus the technology follows and and can you talk a little more about what was stopping you from doing that today and and why does you know this type of a model with with blockchain help well for one the dissident civilization part of all we talk about risk right everybody's worried about privacy cyber security I spent the last 25 years in network of Visa and MasterCard and so we live through all of the breaches and elements of introduction of e-commerce all the way through currents so at the root cause the benefits in the utility we're talking about risk has that benefit but again the impediment for us is want the risk and authentication on the front end but then being able to leverage that in terms of the connectivity so for us it was kind of twofold and finally the technology is caught up to what were you know decades of business problems for us so Jonathan you want to talk a little bit about credit always happy to take an invitation to talk a little bit about correctly so the correctly is focused on helping individuals take possession of an ownership of the evidence of their their skills their certifications their affiliations all of the things that represent their human capital and what they bring to every new job every new learning experience and traditionally for for most of us that has been represented if we're lucky enough to have completed some kind of an educational program you might have a paper certificate or a degree or some kind of transcript that is written in abbreviation of that kind of look cryptographic when you look at them a few weeks after you've earned them you don't necessarily remember what those courses were and what those letters after then might have meant or if you're just a member of the labor market and curating your own CV or resume or or your online profile your self recording what what you think you know and you're doing your best to represent it but everyone has a different approach to that there in a consistent way that we represent our achievements and when you look at employers their writing job descriptions that are meant to approximate what skills and abilities and credentials they're looking for so everyone is using a different approach to reporting out on that human capital but at the end of the day they're looking to understand what is it that people know what kind of skills do they have where did they get them and most of all can I trust it and that's where the work that we do comes in we're bringing credential certification skills into a verified format making them digital making them transparent but also making them owned by the individuals they can move from from place to place and save everyone a lot of time by not having to have people reprove what it is think they know and that they can do so you can start to see how this digitization of learning and workforce credentials really is interwoven with identity and how important it is especially since those credentials belong to you you need to make sure they match up with who you are and what your identity is as you move from place to place and that's where what we're talking about here is so important to that effort so maybe if I could offer one comment I think one of the observations is the cooperativeness of Technology I think credibly is a great example so for us as an old-school engineer we used to think of the five C's of credit and I'll leave you look that up but it wasn't an empirical third-party database that really justified our decisions one of them was character and if you look at the credentials that John mentioned that obviously all of those supply into decisions that if we knew about especially as cooperatives we could actually make for better decisions and so in the gig economy where someone has four jobs and there's no third party that verifies that this would be a cooperative solution that could actually add utility where we both benefited in there and the consumer actually is the one that benefits overall yeah verification I think is important so Jonathan as I listened to what you said you know for somebody new to this space my mental model goes to oh wait a second isn't that just like LinkedIn it's a resume and so talked about a little bit of kind of how you see this ecosystem emerging and how it's it's it's not a a LinkedIn on creating a resume but it's people that are providing you know proofs and contributing to that education history that you have I'm sure this doesn't apply to anyone in this room and certainly not to you Adam but about 85% of employers say they have found a lie or a misrepresentation on a LinkedIn profile a resume or a job application and just the fact that every virtually every employer has had that experience means that those of us who wouldn't dare exaggerate intentionally or misrepresent our own identity and what we offer is called into question because the system at large lacks that kind of integrity so what we're talking about though is switching the model from one in which individuals are exclusively responsible for self reporting to one in which every organization that can make in that test station or an assertion about your your abilities has the ability to do so in open standards digital structure data kind of way which also respects the fact that they don't own you as a person you have an identity that may be different with each group of your interactive it you might use I might use my alumni college address with my association I might use an email address with my employer I might be known by a different set of identity identifiers with with my bank or elsewhere but ultimately I am the same person in that full collection of my skills in a verified way should be able to tell my story but when I want to present it but I also want my my profile if you will my verified identity working for me in ways where I wanted to very carefully control that identity in different places in other words rather than only present my my CV or my resume when I'm looking for a job I might want my I might want jobs or opportunities looking for me but only based on a certain subset of the kind of skills I have so it's about bringing verified signals from the source of truth the organizations that actually see you in action giving them the tools to issue credentials in a common way but making sure that at its heart those credentials are are owned and controlled by the earner yeah I think you did in Drummonds I've heard you describe this in terms of on that connection and it's about the connection can you talk about that and why is that so transformative that's it's a really good point and it's first of several points we're gonna make about the difference between paper credentials and digital ones I like to point out all of us that use computing are familiar with the file amenities right we have file folders on our desk and we have file folders on our machines but we all know file folders on the machines are actually waste somewhere right they have superpowers of the digital I mean paper file folders don't the same is true even more so about digital credentials okay so the first thing involved there that Adams getting to is in self sovereign or decentralized identity the underlying protocol for the sharing of credentials the first thing you do is you actually exchange what we call pairwise pseudonymous D IDs right these decent Eliza identifiers into key pairs behind them every time you form a relationship with the issuer the credential will verify the credential pierre-pierre you do that exchange that is called the price as far as a connection just like it is on moved in but there has never been a connection like this in the history of the internet when we form that exchange if I was to you know get on my phone and do it digitally done right now there's no intermediate service provider involved at all there's no social network there is no ISP there's no nobody in the middle and that connection is for as long as we both want to happen either one of us going to delete it but otherwise it's forever okay and this cryptographically protected we now have this channel between us so we can use that to exchange credentials but we can also use it for anything else John can can explain what the credit you need to want to start to use that your channel for writing with their own members so that's a whole whole facet of this new ecosystem for digital credentials that I don't think people are necessary anticipating our of those connections you can not only prove your ID you can use it to prove identity to authenticate yourself but then for an ongoing relationship so just add on that it's interesting as we look at consumer research time and time again we see that community institutions hold the highest trust level of any other constituents so obviously larger than your retail banks etc and if you think back there were on outside of just access there were two kind of functions that you looked at for your community institution one was I had a safe deposit box right and if I look that's where my valuables I have my driver's license maybe or my birth certificate or insurance policy so I had valuables that were stored actually at the institution that was the first the second is you looked at the commune station as the source of trust for validation of that for other services so if you think about it this is really a modern way of digitizing that same experience so for us we have your trust what we're looking to do is to maintain and extend that so take that and the whole benefit of the ditch centralization and then scale it across the whole consortium you can see that power but what I would suggest is the digitization is not as exotic or it is like cool as we like to make it out at times it's really just digitizing or modernizing a lot of the experiences that consumers have like for generations yeah so Dan you know you sit I think in an interesting role in IBM because you're working with many different verticals who are adopting identity and you could you know so talk some about what you see emerging how you see these ecosystems growing and how would that evolve over time and you know how do these things come together yeah so this is a really interesting this is a daily battle for us so think about it you're all here for you because you're interested in identity but we also interchange the word identity with credentials and so forth we need a better finaiiy I believe but the point here is just sitting on this panel you have the notion of identity spanning across life learner records and financial institutions it's it's the same type of infrastructure that's necessary to enable all different types of interactions that are part of our daily lives whether we're dealing with the government in our relationships we're dealing our employer we're dealing with our financial institutions our academic institutions identity is horizontal it's it's rooted in everything we do I think that's also part of the problem a lot of businesses don't want to invest in something that's so infrastructure so low level plumbing but as soon as you know somebody gets hacked or there's a facebook problem or you know an Equifax problem everybody gets attention to it for you know two weeks of news media time so this is you know it's a really important topic it's an important part of what it means to be network of networks yeah that's a theme you can hear this week at think it may have heard it week talked about it earlier this morning network and network says we start to connect for for interoperability between the different blocking networks that are out there how do members users of those networks interact with those networks using the same unique identifiers trusted identifiers that's where self sovereign identity and decentralize that Danny come into play so you know it's definitely exciting space and lots of promise but certainly I think there's challenges and barriers to adoption so John in particular coming from a banking industry can you talk some what do you see as challenge is how our regulators responding to this system because it's very different from you know the laws and how the world works today and and where are we at on that you know maturation well it's really in Austin right so in terms of the proof of Technology I think we've come a long way in terms of the comfort of the technology I think we're still early if you look at our journey although it was really three years we've been in our company actually came formal last year and many of these conversations were starting with okay why is it different than Bitcoin and bought to you right so it went through a whole narrative of Education and so I think from a regulatory standpoint we spend a lot of amount of time just educating and the fact that this is not what you think of as a suspect you know spec to the financial instrument only I will say now though there is a common recognition of the problems we're trying to solve the problem is scale right and adoption so I think the traditional consumer or customer barriers are there from a regulatory standpoint what is appreciated that kyc has been known as a regulatory check-the-box right and for you and me as a consumer it really has meant nothing right so what everyone's excited about is can you actually elevate kyc to actually now be meaningful as opposed to various so it's early the regulator's are actually interest I have a principle that I've always said an uninformed regulator is dangerous and so we spend a lot of time trying to make sure that everyone's educated and that it's not just for Bitcoin right so for us we think about credentials is one vertical we think about trusted data as a vertical and we think about currencies are very cool so it's really but I think everyone's starting to catch up that it's beyond just Bitcoin and blockchain yeah and I think you hit on not just regulatory but you remind me there's a lot of things just general business and legal implications so Drummond with your role in this sovereign foundation can you talk some about that and what is the sovereign foundation for people who don't know and you know beyond technology you know what role is sovereign trying to play to help address some of these challenges so this recognition that with the promise of this underlying technology – no – give us decentralized digital credentials what we what there was need for was a botching designed just to do that essentially to serve as a global public utility for self sovereign identity somewhat similar to the role that DNS the domain name system serves today but obviously the very for architecture and I talked quite a bit about the differences the similarities and differences between a DNS and so sovereignly than the architecture play sovereign so the whole idea was what if we designed a decentralized network of watching globally scalable but designed from the bottom up just to serve this problem and that my bottom up you mean it is a root of trust for all those public keys it'll go look up so what makes that that work trusted and the model we ended up choosing was what's called public permissioned maybe it's a public network like the corner etherium but the nodes are actually operated by trusted institutions and that means from the outset you have what's called a governance framework for the whole thing and I'm very happy Jeffster in the end of the second generation we produce the first generation of governments framework the working group that I that I chair was fed up about 15 people involved with that effort and that was July of last year now folks agree 22:17 right number 2019 we're about to introduce the second version you can if you just if you google the sovereign sm vrn governance framework you go straight to the home page you can look at the whole thing is matured we are up to we just passed 70 stewards that have been authorized very very happy that IBM was relatively early to the game as a steward but see ledger was way before them but we have actually eight categories of stewards that then qualify any any regulated institution in the country around the world is a good example of universities nonprofit institutions so I become sovereign org and see all the story to see the government's framework it is everything designed from the bottom up to say what do we need to put in place of governance for a decentralized network that is operated just for the purpose of you know helping the world have the utility of self sovereign identity okay can I just jump so one related topic here is we're all interested in blockchain and for those of you here about blockchain your thinking may likely hyper let your fabric right within the I pledge your project sovereign is rooted in the other project which is called hyper literate indie what is confusing for many is that when you're dealing with hyper Lynch of fabric and you're building a business Network identity is related to it can be related to the the way the different peer nodes interact in a trusted manner that today is based on a x.509 certificate as a just distributed certificate authorities or in fabric you have what's called an MSP membership service provider which can you can create different ways in which those peer nodes can interact the point I'm trying to make is that in fabric identity is that at the infrastructure level within the peers but what we're talking about here which self sovereign identity in the sovereign network is how do users members outside the network leverage the network and identify themselves with the network and with many networks right so there's two types of usages of the word identity here with relative to blockchain and we often depending on the context of the conversation we need to really know ground that so just a pointer I think so so Jonathan you're coming at it from from a non regulated industry I think sometimes people think oh well that must just be easy to drive adoption and I'm sure there's there's many challenges that you see for from your space you know well what are you Spearin singh right now is some of the barriers to adoption that you see in the near term well I would say two different categories of organizations when it comes to learning or workforce credentials you've got groups that are already issue in issuing industry-recognized certifications like project management or the GED for high school equivalency or a whole range of state and national university systems and all of those groups have an existing notion of a certification of a of something that already is known by its capital letters people look for it by name and this is simply a story of digitizing it and creating a much more efficient and secure way to allow the people who've earned it to leverage it out in the world the other set of organizations are groups that are in a position to assess skills they might not have a capital letter named credential out of the world but the world is moving towards a skill based economy in which you would like to have much greater stronger signals about individual skills the companies are moving towards a skill based hiring you know that if you hire based on skills and not just pedigree and very broad proxies that you have a 70% faster time to hire you a 50% faster time to get to somebody trained and at work you also have happier employees when you actually certify skills that they're learning while they're on the job and so that whole area of moving towards a more granular level of credentials is I think the harder part of the story because it it asks organizations to think a little bit differently if they already issue credentials about what smaller types of credentials would value in the labor markets of a university like the or a college system like the Colorado Community College saying rather than just giving out associate's degrees we're going to verify individual skills four competencies and things like advanced manufacturing that help a couple of dozen employers in the state pinpoint exactly where the talent is that they need or an employer saying one of the best ways we can demonstrate we're a great place to work is to issue certifications and credentials for people as they complete learning program so IBM for example is issuing certifications credentials badges for every employee some of you in this room may be part of that community and have earned digital badges as part of the IBM program in fact I think virtually every learning activity at IBM now has a certification in our bag that goes along with it helping each person tell their complete story so I think the biggest obstacle with that is the backdrop atom is that is that this isn't just a story about going from now on to digital there's a lot of power in that and and and lots of big companies associations university systems are getting there and that's easy to wrap their head around I think the really interesting and harder part is to say okay if we can do this for existing credentials can we do it at a level at which people are actually able to transact with their skills and or uses a left so I've got a whole bunch of more questions but before we go through that list I want to make sure we get some time for the audience are there any questions from the audience yeah actually you're close enough you want to come up to the microphone socialism and everyone here so I'm thrilled at the possibility that late in life my merit badges from the Boy Scouts you know accessible to everybody but it does raise a serious question about there you know some of my employers might not have nice things to say about me and and yet I would like as a prospective employer to know that we already have that problem with people getting sued but there's there's some information I'd like to expose to some people and not to others and so I'm just wondering if you're working that particular angle of selective disclosure of certain kinds of information because some of this other stuff is none of your business very few areas that I was proud of but we don't actually give anyone that luxury today I think what when you start to build a credentialing ecosystem from the ground up with open standards and and and as digital artifacts right from the start you can build in all the things that put the earner at the center so in short in our world every earner gets to choose how and what and where and with whom to showcase their credentials and I should say that it's also an area where we're finding some really interesting application for blockchain as well around using what you would think of as smart contracts the ability to set really specific rules that say I only want to show my my academic credentials from IBM excuse me my learning credentials from p.m. to the following five companies or any organization that's looking for people in cybersecurity related for cybersecurity related projects but I don't want to show it to someone who's trying to sell me a learning program or a degree or certificate because I'm good on that front but at its heart that's that's I think what's fundamentally different about this new part of the journey is that you do get to decide what and to whom you you share and organizations recognize that a credential the issue says as much about them as an organization and their reputation by what they recognize as it does about the person you earned it and that does help with some of the self policing everyone's jumping you even 30 seconds if you can so we can get to the next question another super power of digital credentials and this one is specific to what sovereign and hyper ledger indir implementing it is selective disclosure meaning the standard protocol that sovereign is developing means any protection you have uses zero knowledge cryptography so you decide what about that credential you actually prove to a verifier for example this driver's license that I would have to show a bartender today to get into a bar or they might even take a photocopy of I will be able using this version to just prove I'm over the drinking agent and it's literally as fast and actually more verifiable than than the paper credentials so selective disclosure is being built into cyber infrastructure for all your credentials yes so just to add on to that we earlier in the conversation we talked about the did spec decentralized identifiers there's not a specification of w3c called verifiable credentials and verify the credentials specifically calls out selective disclosure as a is a requirement but it's important to understand there's two sides of the requirement from the lens of of what Drummond was just talking about from the individual itself sorry I date we're trying to put the individual back in control and when I do get challenged or proven I can selectively disclose what I want to give up however there's the other side for the lettuce if you're the verifier you have business policy maybe in the banking community you have compliance policies right so I may choose not to to disclose certain information but you're not gonna get verified so yes disclose the suffix closure is important but it doesn't mean that business policy or compliance policy is gonna go away it's you know you have the right to refuse to give up certain information now you could try that with you officer pulls you over because you were speeding and you see how that works right so select disclosures good but you have to depends the situational context questions and if you guys just repeat the question for the filly the chair of the sovereign foundation is written several blog posts on this he calls it multi-source identity so there is no one Prudential in this wallet that is my ID my ID is an aggregate of all of them and most importantly it's actually contextual right the credential I'm given that a certain context is a credential I might use in another context like the driver's license like that for driving I can actually use to get on a plane because TSA says I'll accept that right and I actually decide which one I'm going to give TSA will also take a passport if I want to you know show a passport so one of the things I think is most powerful but the whole concept of self sovereign identity is it is the ability of the identity holder okay the individual but that's another point so I'm sorry identities actually for organizations and things as well all these standards we're talking about here are for credentials for all three times but for an individual it's the aggregate of all the credentials you have which has done pointing out that can now be much broader more more more granular more contextual than we typically have of the you know these credentials and I can choose the aggregate of the attitude that I need to prove to anyone verifier and they can choose those right so we're really again we're moving from a more limited form to actually a much richer form as we put all the crypto and infrastructure in place just to add to that I don't believe the identity instrument is self sovereign I believe that the use and the issuance and the presentment and the verification the ecosystem of how it's interacted around itself sovereign and that's very different from how it is today today you know using the driver's license we get issued a driver's license we don't it's dictated to us what identity traits are put on that on that credential all right how we use it you go to the bar today you have show all of it as German pointed out you may only want to expose just your age so it's it's really the interactions in the ecosystem of usage I think we can take maybe two more different networks on their bones right the same problem do we want to don't you want to have it's up to you do you wanna have one view of all of your identity or is your relationship your denny instruments for each relationship different i think it's the latter he was yeah yeah the question very clear the standard we're talking about here the di D standard for that identifiers that have public use and block chains the verifiable credential standard at w3c all about doing that one you can maintain one wallet you can get credentials from any issuer and they can decide on the deities they can decide on the network of networks if they want to issue from you can put the credentials new wallet you go to the verifier that's all in rockland well I think maybe I could try to rephrase your question differently because I think we'll classic problem we're trying to prevent is the you know their browser problem in the late 90s where if I went to four websites I had to open up different browsers to make that work mean it was complicated so maybe Dan or Drummond if you can maybe talk about standards I don't know we talked about the decentralized identity foundation yet you know we're talking about sovereign but there's other networks you know doing the same standard on top of it so so yes spot-on so we don't want the browser wars from the nines right we the reason why we're moving all this work in standards is that we feel that just like in brick-and-mortar if you want to go buy a leather wallet or purse it's your choice well color it is what type it is what brand it is but and then how you take your identity instruments and stuff them in that wallet or purse and organize it that's also your product right so we don't want you to have we don't want you to have to have a wallet or app for each relationship and each identity credential right that doesn't make sense it's not scalable so we're creating these standards so that there can be you can have freedom of choice of a compliant wallet I mean this is key what is a compliant is it certified as it trusted is an application or a digital wallet for you know storing your credentials that's the decision you have to make and we as the industry are gonna try to make sure that they're all getting wallets out there that meet those those requirements I want to underscore that all of you are carrying smartphones today have wallets on right Apple Wallet Google Wallet those are proprietary wallets they are not interoperable they are walled gardens the wallets were talking about here and and we are doing the work dan and I have to lead the world war we called DCAM mass decentralized key management system for interoperable identity wallets where you cannot be locked in to a vendor so I want everyone in this room to walk out going i will only adopt one of those wallets right the consumers of the world need to speak and you will not be locked into a wall

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