2018 - Let's roll out mass encryption!

2018 – Let's roll out mass encryption!

hi thanks that you're all here I'll be talking about pretty easy privacy which comes from pretty good privacy she might have guessed who knows pretty good privacy okay that's most of it was using it okay but less whose do is using it daily okay that's not only what was it three years old and yeah that's exactly the problem which we are trying to solve that pretty good privacy is good but not easy and we're trying to make it easy so that on the one hand sides techies can use it more at ease but especially that normal people who are not into tech can just use it so we're actually not providing a solution for techies we are glad if techies are still using their I just recently had someone who is using Emacs for email and having this with GPG as well and this is pretty important that we still have those let's say pretty X pretty good sophisticated solutions but this is a very low sophisticated solution which is really there for the masses and yeah I'd be going into more detail on that but one more question who had tried to teach GPG to someone and who was successful yeah okay so thanks for everyone who did that I also have done lots of crypto parties during especially after Snowden happened I was in India and it was like hundreds I thought gee PG and I mean I don't have contact to all those people visiting a crypto party but I guess if there is like a handful still using it I'm I would be very glad about it so let's see if this scenes gonna change in the next couple of years um if we look in the past there has lots of change happened but now yeah let's start so I can skip this one as most of you know what it's about I make an intro about the general problem then I introduce the technology for mass encryption we trying to develop then I go more deeper into the general concept of pretty easy privacy and then I have actually a big chapter on the technology for metadata protection the so called new net who has heard about new net before okay just a few so I hope I have enough time to go into more detail but at least you get an idea of what its gonna for it's about and then yeah the usual summary and Q&A but maybe we make the queue a bit shorter let's see how far we come because we also have a stall in the project area when you enter the room on the left side where like the second table around the corner alright so I start with the Declaration of Human Rights article 12 no one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy family home or correspondence nor to attacks upon his honor and reputation everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks so I highlight two points here arbitrary interference and the right to protection just give this little quote I don't know I guess most of you have heard about it this is just published a day day before yesterday or three days before that the court has confirmed that the searches and seizures were illegal so this was an arbitrary interference which was not protected by the law but done by the law sue and there is another quote I don't want to live in a world where everything that I say everything I do everyone I talked to every expression or creativity or love or friendship is recorded which is from Edward Snowden who has shown us that actually the word is like this so everything I talk like everyone I talked to online is recorded so this is one of those thousands of thousands of slides he was publishing so we have the service providers here and the list of stuff which you can get including special requests so you get literally everything so yeah yes we scan we should actually get an update on this if someone is a designer but it's not only the government's who are trying to spy on us there's also this problem we're really like this little picture of those two pics saying that they don't have to pay for the barn and that even a food is for free which means that if you're not paying for it you're not the customer you're the product being sold so the general problem is that online communication is visible like a postcard and that this world has mass surveillance and what we're trying to do as a solution is mass encryption and then mass atomization and how we're gonna do this we are trying to do software which does what the user would want to do so instead of writing how-to guides we write user expectations into software and protocols to automate is all steps a user would need to carry out which is key management key discovery private key handling and lots of more things so how we're doing this we wrote an RFC or an so called internet draft which is the pre RFC which is online and ready for discussions together with the AIESEC Switzerland it's been written and this is the abstract I just read out loud the underlying stuff building on already available security formats and mass transports pretty easy privacy describes protocols to automatize operations key management key discovery private key handling that have been seen to be the barriers to deployment of end-to-end secure interpersonal messaging so this is what happened does so we ultimate izing these things which usually the user should do but which you guys who taught others also most probably figured which is pretty difficult for the users by the way what I found out in the last couple of years is also that it turns out to be very difficult for users nowadays to actually use a mail client so if you are not keen on teaching someone GPG but still think people should get to know more about these stuff then tell them about email clients because this is turning out to be more and more of a problem because people only use webmail and they don't even know the concept of an email program call it app then they understand what it means so this is what PAP does and what does the user do the user should only do messages so this is how it works if you have to PAP users but also one can be a normal GPG user but on the picture we have to PAP users so the install path then one person this is Bob writing to Alice writing the first email which is unencrypted like a postcard but this email already has a key attached so in that step the key gets generated the user doesn't even get to know about it the key gets attached and this writes back which is already encrypted so now those two guys can talk encrypted to each other and if Ellis is a normal GPG user all she needs to do is to attach your key as an attachment like if you send the PAP user oh here's my key this is the URL then the PAP users like okay what are you talking about but just attach the key PAP will see this is a key and reply encrypted so this means you're in the encrypted mode but we do trust on first use you see the first key gets unencrypted to the other person so ideally you also check the fingerprints there we have this concept of trust words where we translate the hexadecimal fingerprints into words so you call each other say the words you make the handshake and now you are encrypted and verified and the only thing as the user is that you see those colors so here your email somehow turns yellow depends on the application there's some yellow spot and here you are in the green mode so ideally everyone should be in the green mode this is another diagram showing the so first email and encrypted and key exchange second email is already encrypted now you do the verification and then you're in the secure and trusted mode all right so what's PAP a software for various platforms to easily use existing crypto tools it's designed to encrypt all digital written communication with the starting point of email I'll explain that later it encrypts automatically with what ever most privacy enhancing krypter krypter standard available hence privacy by default we're going with the opportunistic approach here so if you have seen the RFC you know like the signal and these guys they started to have this opportunistic approach of having like as much as crypto as possible right and if not then not and all end-user software must be hassle-free and zero touch that's why we also don't have a password on the GPT key for example what's PAP not that's also pretty important because we're not yet another crypto 2 of with a closely user base or something we are using existing crypto standards so be compatible with everything that exists out there I mean not everything but everything that's like widely used we're not a centralized platform provider we're not implementing any own crypto we're not replacing any existing crypto tool and we're not just an email encryption tool this is just the beginning who are we this is also very important in these projects we see ourselves as cypher punks we want to roll out mass encryption to optimize the costs of mass surveillance we want to make the use of crypto pretty easy not only for the users but also the developer can plug it into their apps and the user can just use it by default what cypherpunks this is quotes from the cyberpunk manifesto cypherpunks are actively engaged in making the network safer advocate write spread use of strong cryptography as a route to social and political change and they aim to achieve privacy and security through proactive use of cryptography and he's also very nice quote which I really like because of this whole privacy oh I don't have anything to hide thing privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age privacy is not secrecy a private matter is something one doesn't want the whole world to know but a secret matter is something one doesn't want anybody to know privacy is the power to selectively reveal oneself to the world and then last quote we cannot expect governments corporations or other large faceless organizations to grant us privacy we must defend our own privacy if we expect to have any at all we know that someone has to write software to defend privacy and we're going to write it so this is where we are coming from we are actually most of us are a group of people who've done like all these crypto parties and these things and I for example wrote in 2013 the whole trip to party dot in the new webpage this will how true and whatever and we're just at a point where we or we were at a point and we still hire where we were just like okay let's stop writing how to's let's write software who's doing what we're trying to tell the users to just come back to this declaration of human rights everyone has the right to protection of the law and this is not the case we know that so what we need to do if the government doesn't help us if the law doesn't help us we need to take the help of the law of mathematics like just physics that's what we need to do altogether and this just is a really short side note cipher is not about cyber cyber is also not about internet it's the study of control and communications and cipher is an alternative spelling for cipher and yeah also who's me I studied anthropology and computer science so I'm actually a Humana's humanist I'm also carpenter in China my name is hua serves as a eunuch addressing in Internet and web that's why I'm using it widely if you want to know my real name just check the board members of these associations and if you find a female name it's most probably mine and this is stuff I've done which I always like to point out so please come and visit us in India for example yeah now we're actually getting into the things so I'm telling you about the architecture of pep which consists of the engine adapter and applications I show you quick list of repos developing platforms and I also add the organizational forms into the technology could chapter i explain you why once it's about time so the general architecture is as I said applications adapter an engine so we have this engine who knows about the crypto functionalities we have adapters in various languages which are then communicating with the applications I go into more detail on that but here's some more examples so for Outlook you need a chrome server adapter for Android we have this chain I adapter for iOS there's an objective-c adapter and so on so this engine drives several crypto standards on different digital channels like message transport protocols which is at the moment only email like SMTP IMAP exchange blah blah blah it's written in c99 it has roughly 10,000 lines of codes and has regular code out it's it's not meant to be used in the application code directly but you can just plug and play the engine as a developer which means you don't have to maintain any crypto the plug-and-play is a bit too much because our documentation is very bad so if you want to do that then please contact us as well if you wonder about the documentation please yeah so you don't have to mean any any crypto you're like okay what but we have regular code out it's there published on this URL also in the block then once they happen and they're done by a section is by Beth maybe some people know him he's also been part of this crew for quite a while um this engine takes care of the messaging functions the crypto tech services it's like a crypto API makes this fully automatic screen management services and the trust rating it knows about the transport protocols like the message transports ways and in the future there will be this metadata protection why a new net so this means it does the decryption and encryption the mime encoding and decoding the message processing for the adapter the key management which is generation at the beginning and then the verification like this thing all these things and also P synchronization of same account between devices this is still in testing but about to come out soon this will be more or less I think something which I hope lots of you gonna be happy about because it is still a problem like you get encrypted emails and you're like oh sorry I'm on the world please contact me on another channel too if it's important otherwise I come back to you tomorrow or something so this is always very annoying so this engine gets connected through the adapters to applications these adapters are language or environment specific interfaces between the engine API in an application development environment like a programming language or an IDE or something basically the adapter is bindings so and this is a list of adapters we have actively laying around not all of them are in use so far so you're very invited to check with your own communication apps if you want to use one of those adapters and this is how it works the app makes calls to the adapter for the function at once like encrypt or decrypt or get the trust words or trust level or something then the adapter converts that into a normalized standardized form for the engine for the messages and makes the C library call engine magic happens and the adapter gives the result back to the application so it's actually pretty easy um the current implementation of pep is that it handles open PGP and s/mime passively without any hassle for the user it automatically encrypts eclipse the subject in line there is this automatic key management there is no key server or other centralized infrastructure because the key always gets attached to every email those fingerprints get translated into trust words there is an opt-in passphrase for keys so by default there is no password because you know the users who vote just like they will stop using it if it starts hassling and the header gets encrypted and obfuscated and this protocol is in the making to get the keys synced over various devices I have more details on that so this is the applications which we have at the moment Outlook Android Thunderbird with Anik mail and pepper for iOS is a very early alpha which I think at the moment is only like a pre group in testing but if you addressed it we can give you access as well this is the list of repositories you found find them all online on various places because we are like a widespread organization and this is a better overview here you also find everything on pepto software and on peptide foundation foundation / pep software so here's engine and adapter Android iOS outlook and any mail everything on a different place and this is development platforms so basically everything you can think about and now the organizational forms so we have a company a foundation and a cooperative that sign again awesome shaft the company is selling applications and services and sits in Luxembourg the foundation is supporting free software and very important the code belongs to the foundation so the foundation is actually the heart of this so the idea is that the company can also get investors money and stuff like that and then if the company breaks or something fails the code stays with the foundation so the code will be safe and if something that the company happens we can still say okay bad luck that's like continued right and then there's this cooperative which is where you can be a member there's also this nice text in German from syllabic and authors so it's a cooperative of authors and other artists and lawyers and things like that they started this to bring people together and also for corporations with others and to create web plugins because web as I said before most people are using webmail and it's pretty hard to get them into that into mail applications so we need to get their plugins but this is not anything we can do with the company because no investor will give money for free replicants unfortunately then we have a bunch of more websites pepto software where you get the software as binary and code the peptide community with the usual staff and the peptide news which is not there yet but will be giving an overview of everything so I an also the what's always important with these projects also where does the money come from so as I already said the company gets the usual investors staff is like a start-up it's in Luxembourg because the main guy we have two founders one is Swiss one is luxe Luxembourg so it also gets funding from the government of Luxembourg the usual startup tech thing and the foundation is in Switzerland because Switzerland and foundations fit together nicely and as I said most of the people are Swiss and yeah so the foundation has all the documents online where you can see on the money it's mainly private donations in the foundation yeah then the general concept this is six chapters plus a summary I just go into directly this we already seen pepto's what the user would want to do so the idea is to take away the Krypton needs from the users for a few like we have seen this happening with HTTP like before and after Snowden there was a huge increase of the usage of HTTPS in the web and a normal user doesn't even see the difference they just see any green lock or something and they're like okay I don't know what it means and it doesn't matter so this is where we want to want to go so they just see emails which are somehow green and they don't even care what's the difference but ideally like we have it now with the web that most percentage of the web okay I don't know I haven't seen any numbers on this but I feel like most percentage of the web is mean by reachable and HTTPS would like to have most people being reachable on encrypted channels then the easy part pep is easy to install easy to understand easy to use there's no hassle no training needed and as already mentioned also easy for app developers this is one sub part of the easy already explained those trust words so there's battery or staple instead of EC 5 v 3 9c e 8 and so on and this is by the way a piece we cannot put into software so to establish trust you have to look into someone's eyes basically even if it's on the phone right but that's that that we cannot handle on software then the key thing also is a part of making it easy so there are device groups so that you can sync your T key on multiple devices I guess it's easier to explain on this one so we have a pep user having pep on one device installing pep on the second device now those devices like the new device pings on the group and says ok hi I want to be part of the group the fingerprints get checked the handshake gets done and then all devices exchanged their single keys and create a group key which they all Rhian which means you cannot only send keys but also contacts and calendar and this also means that you're using finally contacts and calendar in a backup which is not in the cloud which is others people's computers but your own computers so if you're going on a whatever a big travel and you take your laptop and your cellphone along you can just leave one mobile phone at home leave it plugged with the Wi-Fi get it simple the time and if your happen to get dropped everything is lost and you still have this device at home which has all the backups then we are trying to do everything right without any compromise so the whole thing is and to end peer-to-peer there's no centralized infrastructure or any kind of closed services because yeah we don't want to create yet another crypto app that you have to convince all your friends to be part then oops this is German sorry so PAP is free software is GPL 3 it has regular independent external code out it's like the cypherpunks told us 30 years back and we are compatible with troop 2 technologies message transports platforms and languages this is more detailed so the bolded ones are the ones we already compatible as mine passive as in if a PAP user gets an as my message they can reply on it but pep will never start using as mine I guess you know why then we have OTR or may more axolotl that's the stuff we would like to see next earlier but then if the scene changes like oh memo two years back we wouldn't have had a memo on that list but now it's been turned out to be really great so we're trying to support that as well same with the transport protocols so SMTP IMAP or pop 3 exchange already supported and next we would like to see XMPP and also the non open standards I guess that pretty important like Twitter DMS or facebook chats or whatnot but also stuff like SMS then the metadata protection already mentioned that this should be then the next thing if you have people to encrypt content encryption is not everything I guess in this audience I don't need to tell too much about it but the metadata is still there so what we do right now is we already encrypt the subject in line and we obfuscate and encrypt the rest of the header as much as possible like the whole email inclusive header gets wrapped again so it gets another header in in which is then obfuscated and gives like another like another information like the one which would already originally be there yeah the problem with the Internet is just that the I mean there are lots but to name a few problem is that the general the network generally learns too much the IP protocol leaks information like crazy like IP header from rare to and so on we have insecure defaults and rather high complexity from for the management we have centralized components and also administrators they might be malicious or incompetent but even if they are nice guys they can be a target and these floors are misused already very heavily we know that so what we're trying to do is to pipe everything oh this is also German sorry about this I translate on the fly we're trying to do this whole thing through net and to explain units I try to explain it like this so when the internet started we were like in the 70s in the 80s we were like oh great I can access your computer and you can access mine this is awesome right nowadays we're right okay sure I can access other computers every website every service I use I access others other computers but then if you talk to non-techies they would be what but they can also access me this is how I started every crypto party it's like if you are connected to the Internet they connect the Internet is connected to you right this is what lots of people are not aware of and what we need to have in the far future this is still like an ongoing project which will take a lot of time entrance encryption and animation of all the way the data flows and this I go into this more detail in the next chapter so the summary is that users don't have to think about the crypto anymore they can just use it by default we had this journalist writing this sentence once it is this little hacker inside that decides on the cryptography chosen to communicate with the message recipient and this is what where we actually want to go like in this audience I guess you all know that you're sitting on your computer you're talking to someone and then it's going more personal or more private or whatever and then you decide what medium shift you're doing and then you continue your conversation and then maybe your partner says oh I'm about to leave the house do you have signal and then you're like oh no I don't have signal but do you have a memo on jabber right oh no I only have OTR that's not so good if you're on a mobile and all these things right you know about this and you can decide yourself which is the best communication method to use right now but this is what we cannot expect to all the people out there we're not into technology and we should also stop to expect them to learn this this is something which I had to learn over the years I mean we are or lots of us are somewhat missionaries is it open source is it free software is it telling people to go on Linux or something but we are somewhat missionaries and trying to convince the people but that this is the better way even if they don't know some people will trust you because they know you as a friend they don't know about the technology but they say ok if you are telling me I'll do that but this like small decisions on an everyday basis we cannot expect the people to do so this is why we are trying to have this engine who like in the future in some times knows about the different crypto technologies knows about the different message transports and can make this decision somehow based on algorithms for the people which doesn't mean that they are always going to be totally safe like I said the opportunistic approach as we don't want to hassle the user versus case it can even go like ok I don't find anything I sent unencrypted great this can also happen but we just need to get more crypto noise out there all right so then the next chapter this new net thing and I actually have quite some time this is good so new net is you broke the internet let's make a new one this is their tagline so new net is a mesh routing layer for end-to-end encrypted networking and a framework for distributed applications designed to replace the old insecure internet protocol stack so it's really about replacing the Internet as we know it we're not replacing but like enhancing it with a new version right like I said before the internet 2.0 it started in 2002 which is already quite some time back it's been followed in academia quite heavily there was a full department on the University in Munich and meanwhile it moved to France and I think no there's also part in Switzerland and so on so it's a long process because it's also not something you can do just like on a weekend um to explain what it's about I made a very hard simplified version of the Internet and this whole thing is based talk on from Christian caught off where he it's called 45 subsystems in 45 minutes where he already said all this is impossible to do it in 45 minutes so I'm doing it in 10 now but if you interested you can check it in a much wider version so this is a very hard simplified version of the internet you can somehow see the layers physical layer Ethernet IP TCP DNS and then the applications so I start at the bottom with the physical layer so rebuilding all the wires and fibers is not a reasonable approach it won't lead us anywhere which doesn't mean it's it's still very important to have stuff like scifunc you can visit them out there that we still make our own infrastructure but if we start like this we'll never get ready so instead we simply start with what we have which means we just use existing protocols like TCP UDP SMTP HTTP Wi-Fi Bluetooth whatever is there there are lots of them so we make unreliable out of order packet delivery semantics on these already existing protocols so on this layer the the presence will be up few skated and hided in the network already because if you write an email in like the concept of email let's see but it will not show as an SMTP e-track in the network but maybe as an HTTP or something on this layer we have this automated transport selection that decides which connection to establish and select the best transport to use like for your for voice you can only use transports that have low latency right but if you want to do a download or if you want to send a message you can use something with a higher latency then in the next layer this is called core where can unit runs effectively and off the record link encryption between the peers which means it multiplexes the inbound messages by type to the higher-level subsystems it hides the connections from or to peers that do not speak the same higher-level protocols so it's somewhat like the ethernet layer from unit and simply encrypts that one like today we don't have any encryption there you can fake and spoof IP addresses as you like you can listen to communications and so on so this is all deleted in this layer already then the next layer is about decentralized routing and community decided for an hour five and so basically it's the routing algorithm that's decentralized it includes a distributed hash table which is randomized variant of Camellia and that works still effectively also in very small networks now we come to the heart of the projects cadet the transport protocol this is similar to s CTP the stream control transmission protocol and surf's end-to-end encryption on this layer so on top of cadet there are additional services created that provide more application specific functions so there's something in development that's called axolotl that also provides this as CTP like interface C S CTP is something like TCP and UDP combined and so little axolotl and so lot axolotl is this program this protocol form from signal and they created something like so lot'll which protects the meta metadata and then they also created something called lake which is a further development of pond who knows pond okay yeah so if you haven't heard about it then maybe um it's like the whole yeah I actually have another thing on that because it's happening often so if you know all like okay what's happening what I can tell is by all Science and Mathematics we know today all the metadata will be gone that way so and check out the longer talk if you are interested on that so let's go to the another layer and this is the new name system it's very easy because it's just like a name system that is secure and decentralized it provides an alternative public key infrastructure and replaces therefore DNS and x.509 and it also does not rely on central root zones or any authorities it's interoperable with DNS and it achieves query and response privacy's privacy and now the application layer su application layer is most important in the internet always been file sharing this is actually how brunet started it was just like in 2002 the first white paper was only about file sharing so this file sharing protocol you can use anonymous or non enemies and then what we definitely need is to serve all those people who now they say oh I go into the internet what they actually mean is the web what they mostly mean is one website and we need to have some what social networking things so some people develop siku share for this purpose and then there is an app called conversation not to mix up with conversations this is a Java client conversation is a voice over IP protocol that works you have decentralized wipe and then we have an ipv6 to ipv4 translator internal that already were and then perhaps for messaging and there is no dollar for payments and if you like you can also do apps for community yourself so back to the general concept of community this is quotes from their website community wants to protect the privacy of its users and guard itself attacks against the tax or abuse become a widely used reliable open non-discriminating egalitarian unfettered and censorship resistant system of free information exchange also wants to serve as a development platform for the next generation of decentralized internet protocols so please go and check it out because communites is as I mentioned there for 15 years already it's just gotten free release and June this year which is the first release since 2014 so if you want to check it out please do not use the release from 2014 and not the packages you get in your distribution maybe but please clone the gifts or take the release from June and then you can so follow the instructions on the website from that release in 2014 they will fit more or less if you struggle you get a pretty good help in new nets on freenode and various mailing lists which you can use for that and then please report the bugs because you will find a lot on converter or cash backs so this project is at the moment at a state where actually now since just a couple of months all these protocols I was showing are now in a state that they work and so this is now for the first time a state where we can say okay please geeks and nerds and techies all over go install it test it and tell us what's wrong because there's gonna be lots of things wrong this is an academic project so it's lots of academic code and some of it is very old so we also need to find out what parts have to be rewritten maybe and yeah there's also a good noon at Java so Noonan is generally written in C but hakuna Java exists and this is more or less just a start for an AP e for extensions in Java which I find pretty important because this whole thing it's going to take lots of years till we actually can tell our non geek friends to upgrade to the Internet 2.0 but at that point I'm afraid people won't be using any clap drops anymore they won't be using any proper operating systems anymore but everything is gonna be on those mobile systems so it's actually pretty important I believe to have everything somehow available on a Java platform as well yeah that's the summary we had this before so this is the plan this is what we're trying to do it started in 2014 with one person like a hardcore techie who actually developed the idea since 2016 the first couple of developers were employed and starting to actually write software so on this mass encryption part we are as far as I showed before like we have email programs who do PGP without hassle and we're moving slowly forward and then the mass analyzation part is yeah we need to see the progress on a new net and then we can continue to solve to rescue the world like that and to get back to our human rights as I said before the rights to protection of the law of mathematics that's the only thing that's gonna help us and just as the last sentence regarding the law of mathematics you might have heard that the law of mathematics doesn't doesn't apply in Australia the Australian Minister Turnbull said the laws of mathematics are very commendable but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia so let's show him then this is not true and here I stopped and I'm there for your questions [Applause] yeah I repeat the question yeah I go back to that to that part where was it I know I think it was even yeah yeah it was at the very beginning right so the question was how was the first email key exchange handshake done so let's use this one because there we have everything so this is Allison Bob right so the first email is actually just unencrypted so I have two GPG users and let's say this one is a PAP user and this is a fresh installment so the PAP user-installed PAP so the key got generated in the background and now the user Ellis just sends a very normal message like just a normal email where the key gets automatically attached which she doesn't even know about it so now this first message is a postcard so this first message is unencrypted all I need to know is the email address of that person so I send that email key is attached the second person let's say is also kept user or gbg user but the person or the program realizes Oh this is a message where there is a key attached Oh so I import that key and I reply encrypted so this means we have trust on first use so you get the key on an untrusted email actually only yeah but only by these color indicators so this is like we have this gray yellow and green color indicator and a red one which makes an arm if whatever the key doesn't fit anymore or something so the user is not totally aware about it because this email will just look like any other email only the second email will be looking different where there is depends on the application so if for example on Android you have then a bar the upper bar which is usually gray and then it's yellow and then it gets green at this point so and in an Outlook I think there is a shield button somewhere where you can also turn off the protection and this will be gray and like striked out in the first email in the second email with yellow and maybe showing something that you click on it actually because if you click on it then you get into the verifying fingerprints mode and then it gets green with the whatever smiling face so we also trying not to work with the keys or locks or something to really get this totally out of the users perspective yeah yeah so the question was if if I install a new system how do I get my private key on to the new system and a second part of the question how to where are the key stored are they safely stored so first part is the key gets just normally stored and GPG so when you are like a Windows user installing peb the key gets generated automatically I missed out to mention that extra gvg gets installed automatically and then so I had this just recently on a very remote spot where we haven't had proper internet so then the install wizard Raviv every slow because it has to download the whole GPG system first and install that to actually create the key but then the key will be stored just normal in your GPG settings like on every system so you can grab it there and get it onto your new system so yeah if you have a pep installation it sure checks if it can find any key so if it finds a key it doesn't generate a key but takes this one no it actually does not yet but it should so at the moment it doesn't it just can't generates a key and if you already have an existing key you need to import it afterwards and kind of override it but yeah this is like ideally a key gets detected but I think that's not not there yet and the second part of the storage this is a good question because I also haven't mentioned that so what we need or what we do in this project is that we trust the hardware which I know we shouldn't do but I mean we cannot solve everything right so we he just at one point said okay we assume that the hardware is safe we need to do that so we write in all the documentation x' like all the user manuals everything we have we always write to all this encryption take care for your for your devices also physical security everything but we are also quite aware that especially with this concept of mass encryption maybe you want to go to the masses and not to the techies will be having lots of zombie windows systems which will be doing whatever but not being safe to store at key but that's at the end also not the point so if a person already have such an unsafe system it also doesn't matter if the GPG is key is unsafe but it matters that the communication that is flying around in the internet is encrypted only at the end only for the sake of the ones who are protected that way even more like the usual let's have more krypton oiss so that those people who use encryption don't stand out anymore so but then it's up to you to take care so it's just stored at the normal spot and if your normal system is safe then the key is safe is your system is not safe then the key is not safe yeah yeah yeah that's like either also on the system so it's it's only outlined at the moment so if a person uses map mail on the same device all the time we can give the option of storing the key on the system but if you have this webmail you should also have the option that people actually can use it on different devices so then it's like the mail velop approach that you have the key on a stick which I had actually when I was doing those crypto parties in India I had this quite often that people haven't had their own device and that we had to use this web plug-in which I already said ok everything that has to do with the web's not going to be secure but ok there's no other other way to go so then keep your stick secure so yeah then there were two questions yeah so there is so we just had this discussion on the style yesterday so we both weren't sure so I should repeat the question so how is the the seen if you have CC people or BCC people so if you four here in the first row will start now emailing you could sent an email to those three you attach all their public keys and write an encrypted email to all three but then those three don't know each other's so they won't be having their keys so now we weren't sure we need to ask the devs I'm I actually believe that pep will be seeing all three keys or all four keys if your key is attached as well import them and reply encrypted my colleague meant that most probably only the key from the person may be seen as the one that gets important which I don't think makes sense because the software doesn't know who is actually the person except for the email address but it sees ok there is attachment point a SC so I import them and then once they imported in the reply like you make reply all it'll be encrypted with BCC it's not possible I mean it is possible you can attach all the keys from the people you have in BCC but then it doesn't make sense right there's another approach out to crypt which I also it's good to mention actually it's Auto crypt or ik I think it's a similar approach they also trying to make encryption more automatic it's more an approach for the sophisticated users so what they trying to do is to add the key IDs into the headers so this is something you could do with a BCC list that you add those into the headers and then only very sophisticated users who knows about the headers can check ok who got this email but generally if you write BCC to lots of people you can write them each one of them and encrypted but then ok actually that's the point right because they couldn't cannot reply any anyhow because if they click on reply all it will be only reply to you so then yeah that works really that's okay yeah yeah definitely definitely but I don't have those I mean I have lots of encrypted email staff and their people see seed and then if I do reply all maybe you can come over to the stall and we talk about this happening more detail yeah was it an Apple user okay no no nothing against Apple or maybe but I just had I made an experience once yeah okay just why I was asking I made an experience once experiment once it's like two years back oh so we're created gbgt without an email address attached to see how other clients are handling this and Apple made funny Lee was also saying oh my god I don't know what to do so I take the own key so I got encrypted emails from someone else using Apple Mail but they are key encrypted not with mine so I couldn't read them that's why I thought maybe if it was an Apple user it was the same back ok then there was a question down there how was key life time handled yeah that's not really I don't know exactly but I think it expires automatically and gets redone I know that if you have like if you have a device that's compromised and you want to replace your key the only solution is to broadcast your key so we've already been thinking about that that in that case you can click on something like ok please broadcast my key to everyone I've been talking to encrypted in the last this much time spam a span or two everyone in my address book which I had GPG communication with but generally this is a problem because people like as it all happens automatically you cannot start sending telling people oh I have a new key because they wouldn't even know what is the key but you can send them a broadcast message of which ideally doesn't even then isn't even visible of this is my new key it gets important by Pepin in the future just the new key will be used but then if you make the broadcast only to the ones I had contact with the last two weeks but then someone writes you who you haven't had contact then they will be using the own keys so Alt key so here we definitely have an unsolved problem of redistributing new keys but the life's lifetime it's actually good question I think it gets redone once in a while cycle like but I'm not sure about this shouldn't need to ask the others ok any more question that's great because it's like perfectly in time 15 thank you [Applause] you


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